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New [future] forum structure discussion: Which forums to keep and which to drop
#1
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[edit: This thread is only about the forums and subforums, their structure and which ones we want to keep and which ones are to be deleted (the threads will be moved before of course).]

Hey guys,
since Haides is working on some improvements in the background, I'd like to use that opportunity to gather some ideas about restructering the forum.

From the beginning, when I started to use this forum, I found myself lost pretty often due to the sheer amount of forums and sub forums here. Other users have shared similar experiences when I asked them about their feelings towards the forum and its structure.

Haides already adressed some of that in bringing together the old portal and forum view and clearing the theme.

But I'd like to take that a step further in additionally minimizing the forum structure.

I thought of something like this:
  • General with the subforums Missions and Card Discussion until someone has a better idea
  • Trading
  • Arenas with the subforums PvP, Veteran Arena, Rookie Arena, Limited Arena and Draft Arena
  • Suggestions and Requests
  • Off topic
  • Other languages with sub forums for languages - lets see if that is needed and if we can find moderators for each language
  • Mod Forum
That would also eliminate the two parts 'Welcome' and 'Mabinogi Duel'

I am not sure, what to do with:
  • Missions - is this really needed?
  • Q&A - isnt that a second General forum?
  • Card discussion -> very specific and seldom used...could be a subforum in General? This could also be the place to store the card explanations and price developments from the daily missions thread. E.G. Epoli won't have to copy the text for cards he already commented on over and over. He just needs to link to the card thread. But I fead these additional steps might already be to complicated/inconvenient for most users. Thoughts?
What I definitively want to ex:
  • Guides - the guides will be consolidated into the wiki. Still maintained guides get their own stickied threads in the corresponding forum. They also get linked in the wiki to be able to discuss the wiki topics in these threads.
  • Replays - they are pretty useless without explanation/context. So it makes more sense to just post a thread in the right forum and then add a replay to the thread.
  • My deck - This is too geneal since a deck usually is arena specific and therefore should be posted in one of the corresponding forums

Before we set the changes in motion, I wanted to hear your opinions on that.
So please give us your opinion on the restructering and whats rubbish and whats good from your point of view.
 
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#2
Hey Epoli and Zekken, you made some very good points...but I think they much better in the update thread since your points didnt really adress the structuring of the the forums(s).
Maybe I didnt name each discussion thread clearly enough to underline their differences.
I just updated them and hope, it's better now.

This thread is only about the forums and subforums, their structure and which ones we want to keep and which ones are to be deleted (the threads will be moved before of course).

I moved your posts to the discussion thread for the current update.
 
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#3
I thought of something like this:
  • Trading with the subforum of Gifting.
    Reason why I suggested Gifting is that if in the future there are trend where players tends to have more gifts(golds/gems/boosters) to trade they can post and let other players to locate at ease. This idea can also be ignore as most of us tends to give it to friends and eventually there may not be any left to trade.
  • General with the subforums Missions and Card Discussion
For the card discussion I think sicut did a good job by adding the card picture in the forum. But I think this can be omitted for now. sicut should just focus on the cards that are commonly used in current deck which are popular. If others wanted to ask about old cards, they can either search is there an existing thread for the card and discuss in there, in which sicut can then add the photos into it or create a thread that have not exist in the forum.

To promote this:
1) we have to start the culture by posting questions on cards in this subforums and reduce the discussion in shoutbox.
2) admin will cut the discussion from the shoutbox, summarize the question and answers players posted in the shoutbox and post it here for players who may have the same question to view it. It's similar to faq type of format. so that admin or players won't be repeating the same thing over and over again.

To be frank with the use of shoutbox, it actually reduce players from using this subforums. But shoutbox is actually better as it's very interactive where players can become friends rather than to be so dead where everyone just post a thread and wait for a reply. Tongue

Mission wise, it should be copy/transfer to the wiki as only new players may need to refer to.

  • Arenas with the subforums PvP, Veteran Arena, Rookie Arena, Limited Arena and Draft Arena
For the above we can actually have another subforums for each individual type by merging Replays* and My deck. For example In PvP there with be have another subforums My Deck and Replay, where players who are helpful enough to share:
1) their current PvP deck link as well as explanation how he will use the cards etc.
2) similar as above but just that you posted a link with a video to show a battle of the deck you are using and how you use it.

Reason why I suggested this because whenever I am having difficultly in rookie, players will suggest "why don't you use trialp's deck." Then I would be ??? so what cards did trialp used in his deck. Then either the player/s suggested or the actual player will copy his deck and paste the link over and over again whenever someone asked about it. So as well we shared it here if they don't mind. But if they do then, we just stick to the copy and paste regime. Tongue

No 1) is word type while 2) is video type.
*rmks: I assume the replays here means a video of how you used your deck. but if it means to show a replay of how you lose a battle and wish to start a discussion on it, then we can have the replays in the subforums PvP etc.
  • Suggestions and Requests
I assume suggestions is where players post a thread with the deck and ask for suggestion to improve it. This can be omitted as players can start a thread at the General.
  • Guides - the guides will be consolidated into the wiki. Still maintained guides get their own stickied threads in the corresponding forum. They also get linked in the wiki to be able to discuss the wiki topics in these threads. Or we can just add into the Arenas subforums as the guides are for each individial arena, I assume.
That's all I have now. Hope I have not confused the admin reading it.

 
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#4
Wow, thanks for that much feedback Smile 

Please take into account, that the thread was started more than 2 months ago and we finalized the restructuring a month ago. But of course nothing is really final, so all suggestions will be heard!
So just one quick question, did you actually have a look at the current forum state? Most of your and my suggestions are already in place. And the forum descriptions should explain its contents further.

But since you took all that afford to post that much, I'll try to answer everything as well.

(09-26-2016, 10:13 AM)finityw Wrote: [...]subforum of Gifting[...]

For now we radically reduced forums and subforums since they make no sense if they only have one new thread a week. But if if the gem trading gets out of hand, we surely can dedicate that an own forum.


(09-26-2016, 10:13 AM)finityw Wrote: [...]General with the subforums Missions and Card Discussion[...]

Done and done. Although the Card Discussion forum got promoted shortly after, because I finally realized, that it's actually a really neat idea if used and maintained properly.
(09-26-2016, 10:13 AM)finityw Wrote: For the card discussion I think sicut did a good job by adding the card picture in the forum. But I think this can be omitted for now. sicut should just focus on the cards that are commonly used in current deck which are popular. If others wanted to ask about old cards, they can either search is there an existing thread for the card and discuss in there, in which sicut can then add the photos into it or create a thread that have not exist in the forum.

Thank you Big Grin  And currently it's exactly working like you described. We (well, mostly I) put up/update a thread only for cards, that are actually discussed currently or used in my posts (-> decks). For new cards I put up a how to for posting a new thread, too.
But actually you reminded me of the automated process. So I'll ask Haides, how that worked. Can't be too complicated to build in my how in the script code.

(09-26-2016, 10:13 AM)finityw Wrote: To promote this:
1) we have to start the culture by posting questions on cards in this subforums and reduce the discussion in shoutbox.
2) admin will cut the discussion from the shoutbox, summarize the question and answers players posted in the shoutbox and post it here for players who may have the same question to view it. It's similar to faq type of format. so that admin or players won't be repeating the same thing over and over again.

To be frank with the use of shoutbox, it actually reduce players from using this subforums. But shoutbox is actually better as it's very interactive where players can become friends rather than to be so dead where everyone just post a thread and wait for a reply. [Image: tongue.png]
1) Yep, that's why I always harass ask users politely to post that question/idea/discussion/wiki entry (more to that later). But that alone isn't enough since most ppl are lazy. I am 100% certain, that without the forum, the shoutbox would die, too, since without some regular new content it's less likely to meet some ppl here right when you log on.
2 ) see 1)
The problem is, that we are nowhere at a certain critical mass to keep everything flowing on it's own. And until most ppl realize that just leeching isn't helping that cause, not much will change.

(09-26-2016, 10:13 AM)finityw Wrote: Mission wise, it should be copy/transfer to the wiki as only new players may need to refer to.

Good point, agreed. Maybe a single discussion thread...but that's about it. (and there is that wiki thing again Big Grin )

(09-26-2016, 10:13 AM)finityw Wrote:
  • Arenas with the subforums PvP, Veteran Arena, Rookie Arena, Limited Arena and Draft Arena

We actually did have subforums for all this. But as it turned out, logically nobody posted in the main forum, since the subforums already covered everything. So that structure did make zero sense in retrospective. Also that there weren't that many or even zero new threads in each subforum wasn't helping either. Nobody wants to check 5 subforums to finally realize, that only one new thread emerged.
So I asked Haides to join them all and forced that new tag system. This way we regularly have something new in  the forum and still maintain some kind of order.

(09-26-2016, 10:13 AM)finityw Wrote: For the above we can actually have another subforums for each individual type by merging Replays* and My deck. For example In PvP there with be have another subforums My Deck and Replay, where players who are helpful enough to share:
1) their current PvP deck link as well as explanation how he will use the cards etc.
2) similar as above but just that you posted a link with a video to show a battle of the deck you are using and how you use it.

Reason why I suggested this because whenever I am having difficultly in rookie, players will suggest "why don't you use trialp's deck." Then I would be ??? so what cards did trialp used in his deck. Then either the player/s suggested or the actual player will copy his deck and paste the link over and over again whenever someone asked about it. So as well we shared it here if they don't mind. But if they do then, we just stick to the copy and paste regime. [Image: tongue.png]

Ok, so that would mean at least 3 times 2 subforums. That will just result in nobody using them like I stated above with only half the number of subforums. People are lazy and if they don't exactly know where to post something because the system seems too complicated, they a) just post it anywhere or b) don't post it at all.

The previous single My Deck subforum wasn't used at all, too. Undecided

I like your idea though - a deck ressource thing. But that should be accessible easier than through a forum. The discussion can still take part in the Arena forum, but the decks could be either in the wiki and maintained there without losing the overview (better sorting, caregorizing and stuff). Or there could be a new widget for that. But since the latter one is a lot more work, I would vote for the wiki (and again, what's this New Zealand weirdo [ Rolleyes ] thingy again Big Grin ).

(09-26-2016, 10:13 AM)finityw Wrote: No 1) is word type while 2) is video type.
*rmks: I assume the replays here means a video of how you used your deck. but if it means to show a replay of how you lose a battle and wish to start a discussion on it, then we can have the replays in the subforums PvP etc.

I would really love that, since it's easier to show/see problems with certain decks, cards and/or situations.
But nobody - and I repeat: nobody - posted any videos. It took a year, until finally a certain someone (on reddit) made the effort to make decent videos explaining stuff for this game.

But this time I can't even blame the lazy user. It's a pain in the ass to easily share a replay afaik. I saved dozens of replays with stuff, I think are nice examples for certain things. Yet, posting/sharing them is total different beast. It would actually boost the community quite a bit, if they would offer an automated process to transcode the scripted replay into a video and uploading that to a platform of your choice.

(09-26-2016, 10:13 AM)finityw Wrote:
  • Suggestions and Requests

I assume suggestions is where players post a thread with the deck and ask for suggestion to improve it. This can be omitted as players can start a thread at the General.

Ok, here you are kinda wrong Tongue  May I direct you to the forum description of this very forum for this (readable in this view)?

(09-26-2016, 10:13 AM)finityw Wrote: Or we can just add into the Arenas subforums as the guides are for each individial arena, I assume.

Yet again, that would mean even more convoluted chaos. It can't work. Also most of the guides were never finished/cover only a fraction. So if they are not comprehensible and maintained, the wiki (yet again Smile ) is the better place for that.

(09-26-2016, 10:13 AM)finityw Wrote: That's all I have now. Hope I have not confused the admin reading it.

I hope so, too. But the admin (do you mean Haides or me btw?) is somewhat always confused Big Grin


Ok, and now we come to the Gretchenfrage: What's up with this Wiki thing?!
So far there was literally zero feedback and zero support for that topic. I can't and I won't do it all by myself. And it's not supposed to be maintained by a single person either. I could just open a huge FAQ thread for that.

Until that changes, I guess most of the knowledge will be forgotten, found anew, asked for & explained again [in chat/forum] and discussed a gazillion times. That senseless redundancy is nerf breaking in chat and is not helping anybody:
  • The asker might not get an answer due to the countles times the question got asked already or nobody is online to answer that/has the knowledge to answer it. So he will eventually stop asking and go somewhere else / stop altogeter.
  • The answering person will grow impatient after answering the same stuff over and over and eventually won't answer at all.
 
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